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On 10 Sep 2004 at 17:21, Russ Wolfe wrote: > Sub frames are the same between manual and automatic. It is just the pan > that is different. The automatic doesnt have the clutch cable tube and > has a hole for the shift cable to come out. Indeed, when I check the parts lists, I just find 2 rear subframes: Swing axle and IRS. But the rear subframe on my 69 AT is quite different from those on all the other IRS cars that I've worked on. I suspect it was an early style for AT only, and that it was superceeded by one which fit accepted either tranny. The later part would be the only one needed for repairs, so that would explain why the OE AT '69-70 version does not show up on any of my parts lists. While most IRS subframes have just round tubes for the torsion bars, the '69 subframe has extra box-tube additions to the underside of the round tubes. I don't understand what these are for, or why they made them differently, but I'm pretty sure that the later subframes just went back to the round tubes. I believe that the later subframes have 2 sets of holes for accepting either the MT front mount or the AT front mount. What I'm afraid of is that the very early AT subframe won't have the holes you need to accept the MT front mount. Does anyone out there have a '69 with MT? If so, could you check to see if the torsion bar tubes are just round or have those square boxes welded under them? That would settle this debate, because it's also possible that there was an early IRS subframe, but that it also accepted either transmission. Same way with the early tunnels. You'll find that the top of the tunnel is formed to accept either an AT or an MT shift lever. Only later tunnels came with a large hole that accepted adapter plates for one or the other. That adapter plate is shown in the Bentley manual, chapter 1, figure 3-11, item 12. It started in '71, so my bet is that the subframe changed at the same time -- ******************************* Jim Adney, jadney@vwtype3.org Madison, Wisconsin, USA ******************************* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List info at http://www.vwtype3.org/list | mailto:gregm@vwtype3.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Shameless link for search engines: http://listarchive.type3.org ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~