RE: [T3] Need advice on Primers... more...

["Keith Park" <topnotch@nycap.rr.com>]

Ahhh... you really know your stuff!  Id discovered early on that parking the
Notch in the sun will remove light to moderate water spotting completely,  I
was really astounded when they first disappeared!  Only the slightest
remains of the deep ones remained.. ones from dripping condensation over the
winter.  This RM clearcoat is circa 1997... so they fixed that eh?  Maybe I
should to back to the BASF system when I paint the Crate?  Its not going to
be metallic!

Ive had problems with the non catalized Dupoint paint waterspotting and even
the 2pak Centari does to some extent... but not nearly as bad.
I can go out of state to get paint that is not VOC, but how long is the
shelf life on the stuff if unopened?

Yea, what used to be a pleasant hobby is now changing when it comes to
paint....

Thanks for all the expertise!

Keith

-----Original Message-----
From: james.candace [mailto:james.candace@xtra.co.nz] 
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 2:19 AM
To: type3@vwtype3.org
Subject: Re: [T3] Need advice on Primers... more...

Hi Keith, to get rid of your water spots, get hold of an infra red heat 
lamp, and set it up on the offending areas, set back about 1 meter at first,

and let it get really hot without melting the paint or any plastics. You 
need to get the surface hot enough so you can't comfortably hold your hand 
on the surface. When this is acheived, in about 20 or so minutes, you will 
be able to watch your water spots dissapear, then give it a light cut after 
it has cooled down.
The early RM high solids clear, was known for doing this, as was the MS 
clear of the time. The high solids was a bit yellow as well.
The stuff they make today, dosn't have these problems. I forgot that you are

under VOC compliant rules, so your products may be a little different to 
ours, we don't have these regulations here in NZ yet, but they are on the 
way.
>From what I know about Dupont, they have a single tinter base, which means, 
that the tinters used from base coat, 2k etc, are all the same, you just add

different binders to get the system you want to use, this may be worth 
exploring, some systems like Sikens have a converter, which will change base

coat to 2k, and 2k to base coat, so thats something else you can ask the 
Dupont guy.
I would imagine that the VOC compliant 2paks are painful to use, as the 
solvents are what makes the paint so all the neat stuff we like to make our 
jobs easier. Companies like Sikens, RM, PPG etc are all coming up with water

bourne products, from primers to clear coats, but I can't imagine them being

at all cheap.
Hope this helps,
James NZ 67 Fast Back.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Park" <topnotch@nycap.rr.com>
To: <type3@vwtype3.org>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 2:19 PM
Subject: RE: [T3] Need advice on Primers... more...


> Im glad you chimed in!
> I used to use RM, loved the stuff, but it water spotted on the clear 
> coat...
> still does on the Notch 10 years later!  But after leaving it in the sun 
> the
> spots mostly disappear.  Centari is Duponts Acrylic Enamel... 2K is what
> they call it these days I believe... paint with optional gloss/hardner and
> reducer.  Yes, blotchy is what I got!
> Im now using a high build primer that says right on the can DIRECT OVER
> METAL, so it must have the etch built in or be an epoxy.... it smells that
> way.  GOOD point on the Bondo... Ive usually put it right over the steel
> but... yea, its better to have a barrier under it!
>
> I can get the 2pak, but only the VOC compliant stuff.... Yuck!
>
> Keith
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: james.candace [mailto:james.candace@xtra.co.nz]
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 6:16 AM
> To: type3@vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] Need advice on Primers... more...
>
> Iv'e been painting cars for about 15 years now, using the Glasurit paint
> system, it's called RM in the US.
> Centari, is this duponts 2k, or direct gloss sysytem? If so, then no you
> shouldn't use it with a metalic. Too much film bulid and the metalic 
> flakes
> stay in suspention within the film and don't end up laying down right, and
> you get what looks like mottle, blotchy.
> High build primers don't tend to flow out, pretty much how it comes out of
> the gun is what you get. Not much point in thinning it down to get it to
> flow, as it wouln't be high build anymore, it would just be a pimer
> surfacer, which you would use on any primer rub throughs to seal them off
> again.
> All bare steel should have some sort of acid etch primer applied before 
> any
> other primer, high build, surfacer etc. Better still is to use an epoxy
> primer. You can use bog (bondo) etc over the top of epoxys, but not acid
> etch, it will fall off. One big advantage to using bog over an epoxy 
> primer
> as opossed to bare steel is stone chipping. Bog is very porous, and the
> steel is still sealed off with the epoxy. It is the next best thing in
> refinish to factory e-coat (the black stuff new panels come coated with,
> sometimes grey green or yellow).Yes is is true that many high build 
> primers
> will adhere to bare steel, the issue is that very few of these have
> sufitiant anticorrosive properties, I know of none that I would recomend 
> for
>
> going straight over the top of bare steel, other that something like POR 
> 15,
>
> but it goes that hard it's not suitable for that sort of use.
> Even here in little old NewZealand, not a lot of paint shops will sell a
> full system to the general public, you can get it, but it's not the same
> stuff used in body shops, mostly acrylic lacquers, and enamels, not a lot 
> of
>
> 2pak sold over the counter.
> Does the primer your using have an activater, or hardener with it or do 
> you
> only add reducer?
> And to get into those tight little spots, adjust the fan on your gun to
> spot, hold the gun quite far back, and pull the trigger only slightly 
> until
> paint starts to come out, you may need to have a play till you get this
> right, and then just lightly spray into the area you are doing, until it
> looks wet enough, and keep your head out of the way of the blow back. I 
> tend
>
> to do these tight areas first, trying not to get too much paint onto the
> face of the panel, adjust your gun back to full fan, and then do a wet 
> coat
> on the face.
> I'm not overly familiar with the Dupont system, and the products your 
> using,
>
> but it definately pays to stay with one paint system, from etch/epoxy
> primers, right through to your top coat, at least if there are any issues,
> someone should be able to pin point them for you, and you may even be
> covered by a warranty, if done by a body shop.
> And unfortunately, sometimes a man just dosn't have enough hair.
>
> James NZ 67 Fast Back.
>
>> Hey all,
>> Well... after getting the Dupont Rep to actually admit that you shouldn't
>> use the Centari with high solids metallic's I got a bunch of part numbers
>> for Primers that my jobber cant get...
>>
>> Anywho...  I need advice on the high build primer Ive been using, the 
>> UPOL
>> S2025v/g  (a Acrylic Urethane Enamel with activator) Ive had a problem
>> with
>> it not flowing out and not getting into the crevices like the fuel filler
>> on
>> the RF fender, I had to use a small paint brush!  So when going back to 
>> my
>> jobber to ask their advice their more experienced guy said that I should
>> NOT
>> be putting this primer over bare steel.  The data sheet says surface prep
>> over steel is to sand with 180 grit and only mentions an etching primer
>> for
>> use over galvanized steel or aluminum.  He still recommended that I sand
>> it
>> all back off and start again with a product that doesn't say weather it's
>> a
>> Urethane or Epoxy primer but it does say "Direct to metal, primer, 
>> filler,
>> sealer" right on the can, and can be reduced with Acetone.  It's a 5 star
>> autobody product.
>> I do believe that someone on the list said that you need an epoxy primer
>> over bare steel but how about Urethane?
>>
>> Im pulling out fistfuls of hair!  There is 2 months of Anal wet sanding
>> and
>> body work on most of the panels at this point...  to start again would
>> leave
>> half the summer at a loss for progress, but Ill never get time to do this
>> car again and certainly don't want to take chances on a primer that
>> *might*
>> work.
>>
>> Oh for the good old days, when you walked in the store, were pointed 
>> right
>> to the exact product of your choice, bought each part from the same
>> manufacturer, got a whole BROCHURE to go with it all and were able to 
>> kill
>> all the mosquitoes in the area from the fumes!
>>
>> Keith
>>
>>
>
>>
>>
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