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On 25 Apr 2005 at 10:12, Schlegel, Richard wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Adney [mailto:jadney@vwtype3.org] > > >>> Starting on the first crank has almost nothing to do with the > ignition. Both types of ignitions will do this if the fuel is there. > > Our T3 has never started on the first crank. It usually had to turn over > a few times before firing up. All I know is that our T3 starts faster > and runs smoother (at least to me anyway) The nice thing about any ignition system is that you never have to wait for the electrons to show up at the other end of the wire. At least on our kind of time scale, the response is immediate, regardless of which type of system you have. It's also important to keep in mind that its only fair to compare 2 systems that are both in good repair. Too often I see comparisons that make such outrageous claims that you know they had to be comparing their system to a stock system that was badly malfunctioning. > You talked me out of tossing our FI and backed it up with a good argument > that convinced me, but anyone with an automotive back ground knows that > electronic ignition (or just points) is much more reliable than mechanical > points that wear out and need adjusting. Am I wrong here too? I think so. The main problem that I see with points is that after so many years the normal maintence of the dist cam gets ignored. The rubbing block rubs on the cam and wears a groove in it. This happens because the cams never get lubricated, and because the dirt which accumulates in the old grease there never gets cleaned off. If the cam is smooth and lubricated, the rubbing block doesn't wear. If the rubbing block doesn't wear the points will last a LONG time. When I rebuild a dist, one of the things I do is refinish the cam, restoring its surface finish so that it won't wear out rubbing blocks. If you do this, and then keep the cam lubricated, you will minimize your problems. The point contact surfaces themselves seem to last virtually forever as long as the stock coil is used. If you buy an aftermarket coil that draws more current, that can certainly shorten the points lifetime. I've yet to see any advantage to "hot" coils, however. Most of them seem to fall into the Pertronix category where they work just fine for a few years and then fail. All my type 3s are running on original VW/Bosch coils, with no sacrifice in performance. Things that are electronic are not automatically more reliable than those which are mechanical. They CAN be, and they WILL be if they are designed and tested carefully. But the kind of care and experience that it takes to make a totally reliable automotive electronic device do not come cheaply or easily. Companies like Ford have probably spent more on ignition module reliability than Pertronix has ever grossed in total sales. Consider some of the history of automotive electronic ignitions. One of the first was a unit sold, I think, by Judson, which was just a standard coil with a TO-3 transistor embedded in epoxy on the side. The transisor did nothing and wasn't even in the circuit, but they still sold them. Later, in the 70s, when GM and Chrysler started getting serious about this, they sold millions of cars with Hall sensor ignitions which tended not to last too long. Early VW/Bosch aircooled electronic distributors had a terrible track record, and Bosch even started a rebuild program for them because they failed so often. Today, they are all pretty much reliable, but even VW/Bosch had an awful time a couple of years ago with ignition coils which were failing at a rate greater than 10% (on cars which used 1 coil per cylinder!) > >>> This mentality continues to be stroked by those who stand to profit > from sales of the 009s. > > What about VW points manufacturers? This is a Billion dollar industry! > :-) The same people who made the points also make the electronic ignitions. They would have to sell a LOT of points to make up the profit in 1 electronic ignition, and besides, that's future profit, not today's. So I'm guessing that this improved their bottom line and they welcomed it. ;-) > >>> Frankly, my first choice in ignitions are the old CDI units made by > Delta. They use the stock points & coil and have a switch that > >>> allows them to be switched back to normal. > Please explain this. What did you mean by a switch? The Delta Mark 10B and 10C CDI ignitions came with a pushbutton switch which enabled the CDI when pushed in and bypassed it (leaving the stock Kettering ignition) when the button was out. It was a easy way to "limp" home if the CDI failed, or to time your engine without blowing up your timing light. BTW, the only Delta that ever failed on me was a Mark 10 A, which didn't have the switch. That was in about 1970, and I just had to replace the main inverter (germanium) transistors to fix it. To get the car back on the road in that case, I had to disconnect the CDI wires to the coil. BTW-2, I bought a bucketfull of (probably broken) Mark 10B CDIs at a swap meet a few years ago. I still need to go thru them and fix what I can. At that point I hope to have some to sell. BTW-3, I have a customer who has a type 4 fastback. On that car, he installed a Pertronix AND a Delta CDI. On THAT car, timing the engine is a REAL pain! You have to stick your head in where you can't get it out in a hurry, with your eyeball about 4" from the fan, rev the engine up to 3700 and then adjust the timing. If you have one of these cars, I wouldn't blame you for wanting to maximize your reliability, but the question remains open as to what is the best way to do this. -- Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org Madison, WI 53711-3054 USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List info at http://www.vwtype3.org/list | mailto:gregm@vwtype3.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~