Re: [T3] Hesitation, Bogged Down, Vibration - It's All here!

["Leon Martinez B." <martinezl@icanet.com.mx>]

CHRIS,

Injectors are not cheap, they are almost an investment.
The go for anywhere from 25 dollars each to 45 bucks
each depending where you get them and if they are rebuilt
or new. I had a brother who used to work at an autoparts
place and I was able to get rebuilt ones for 15 bucks each.
I bought one of those and bought three new ones for 30 bucks
each remember these were wholesale so I have not been
expose to regular prices but my brother does not work there
anymore. To get the rebuilt BRET ones you need to contact
these guys if your local parts store does not use them
as one of their vendors. THey are out of Anaheim California
in LA county. Their numbers are (714)835-4064 or 800-616-3254
they also rebuild pressure sensors. You can try to get this
locally if the local stores use Bret as a vendor. Part numbers vary
depending on models, year of car or engineering upgrade
of component. The pressure sensors last numbers may be
0 280 100 001 , fully adjustable, and 0 280 100 007
non adjustable but with modification can be made adjustable.
They are interchangeable.

The new or rebuild BOSCH units (pricey but worth every penny)
can be obtained at any  autoparts
store that has the BOSCH fuel injection catalog or the
Carter fuel injection catalog (they sell the same BOSCH
parts but at a lower price including the fuel pump).
That would be virtually all stores.
If they cannot find it in the catalog then you are
working with incompetent people. I have been through that before
and had to look it up myself by asking to borrow the catalog
behind the counter. If you know what you are looking for
you will find it easy, do not expect an 18 year old kid
that only knows how to change tires on a HONDA to find your
part for a vintage VW EFI car.

The injectors are shared by the 914 PORSCHE 1700 . The pressure
sensor models vari but can be calibrated to your car most
likely but stick with the model numbers I give you or you
have the your car year and model.
The nonadjustable ones have the adjustment screw covered
with a cap that looks like a large screw head (aluminum
some times plastic. If you have no cap and the epoxy
is on the adjustment screw itself this mod will be
tricky and patience and skill is reqired to remove the stuff
or you may mess up if not patient and careful.


If you are not satisfied with the performance of the
nonadjustable type (they are adjusted slightly lean
for emissions specifications). You can change the way it
works.
The non-
adjustable models can be modified by drilling the aluminum
rivets out or grind the heads off and push them out. This only
applies to the ones that are not screwed in together. Get a tap
and tap a thread of the right size for your replacement screws.
I hope you know how to do this otherwize practice drilling and
tapping other stuff. You do not want a broken tap stuck inside
of the hole. Take the rear part of the sensor apart . Notice
the adjstment screw is rounded on one side to push itself against
the accordian bellow when adjusting. The screw is screwed in the
rear main rear aluminum case or a flat brass disk (most conmmon
today) . If the one screwed to the main case Use a blow torch
(hardware store for copper plumbing) to melt the epoxy as you turn.
Clean it up after removing the screw, make sure you count how many
threads the screw was turned in before removal , this way you have
notrouble adjusting to ballpark when trying to use it. If the
Adjustment screw is in the round disk and you have removed the disk
(plate) from the rear part of the case and the rear part of the case
is bare except for the adjustment cover epoxyed in. If the cover is ]
made of plastic you can just break it and remove it with a screw
driver and you can put the sensor back together but if it made of
metal then the blowtorch will be needed to remove the screwed on
cover while you take it out with a screwdriver . Re assemble these
and you now have a new adjustable unit. Do not foreget to remember
how everything goes together.

I give you all this info incase you need it later.
If you have the money I recommend you buy new injectors and a
pressure sensor. You will feel the difference.

Your vibration can be definitely caused by either the injectors
which may be all binding at high speeds , all of mine did that
even the good ones and the rebuilt ones from PYTHON. The
pressure sensor maybe stuck in a position when during acceleration but
I think when the sensor works at lower speeds , it should work at
higher because the vacume during slow cruising is the same aceleration
lower vacume during high and low speeds. the pressure sensor does not
care how fast the engine is turning , it cares about the vacume only.
The two items that are vacume dependent are the Points and the injectors.
You may have some junk in them. If you are absolutely sure they are in very
good shape (i doubt it, because of their age) have them cleaned at a EFI
shop (look in the yellow pages) . They will reverse clean them and check for
pattern but will not check for high speed seizing. Clean your fuel lines by
disconnecting them off the EFI gastank return on the left side
(side with no fuel pressure regulator) and let the fuel pump pump
while pouring the gas in a can. Is there any junk comming out the
fuel line ? Do not forget to replace the fuel filter, and if
you want to replace the fuel lines , I recommend it ,
I can get you GATES internal and the external braided type that
can take about 900lbs and is very flexible like regular rubber lines.


Yes I do have have a new pressure sensor from Bosch that I did not
modify .(got this from Autozone from the EFI catalog, lots of money
150 bucks ??? foregot). I can loan you it if you need to go that way
but I want it back since this is my emergency unit. It wokerd beatifully
but I wanted more zooom out of it.  When I
placed this in my car, it was slightly lean so I made an adjustable
one that I got from BRET INSTRUMENTS. Adjusted this and I got more
zooooom than before (I missed those 8 liter engines) and still
 got good gas mileage. So you can borrow my spare. I have one good injector
that I have from PYTHON, out of ten injectors this one was the only decent
rebuilt one from them I found. You can borrow this one too but I want it
back. You can compare the spray pattern and volume from the other
ones you have. I did 15 complete manual throttle pumps with no engine
turning and I think the flow went to 100cc, I do not remember well
maybe you can invent your own measuring scale using the new
injector as your pattern and flow reference. I sent an e-mail to the list
about the exact numbers I had. Remmember and do not forget
That this is a high speed check of the injectors almost
any clean injector (ieven if they are bad) can inject very similar
flow at low speeds. The injector mist click 25 times to 75 times
per second for our cars. Each throttle pump squirts 25 injections
per throttle rotation on only two injectors at a time. This only applies to
the EFI with throttle pump option ( b + Brain ? plus throttle switch,
can use Mercedes or Volvo or some of the VW switches, Look inside switch,
must have 25 lines perpendicular to the center shaft). If you
do not have the throttle pump option then you can remove the dist and use
the new injector as your reference and make your own measurements.


Do not forget to remove the hot wire from the coil when doing this
because you do not wish to cause a big fire in your car cused by the
spark.

I can loan you a new pressure sensor and a good rebuilt injector.
I can get you new braided GATES fuel line measured in metric.
I think it is your injectors (old) or gummy EFI points ("hinges")that
have the problem.

Just e-mail me your adress and updates. Remember I need them back.


LEON MARTINEZ
1969 SQUAREBACK EFI/AUTO
SAN DIEGO AND TIJUANA











-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Picknally [mailto:bluesky@verdeonline.com]
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 7:00 AM
To: Leon Martinez B.
Subject: Re: EFI PROBLEM


Wow you seem to speak my language! I believe your worn injectors sound like
a large part of the puzzle. It's that ghost problem I feel I have, and makes
a lot of sense. When you refer to the "Gas Pump" and clicking while the key
is on you do not mean WHEN THE ENGINE IS RUNNING Ð since you could not hear
the clicking anyway Ð right? I do have that feature I do believe, though I
thought it was only the cold start injector that was firing. I shall try
this.

How much do the injectors cost? Either the injectors rebuilt by Bret (who
are they and how do I to contact them) or Bosch?

Theory - I had a missing problem that I normally don't have (Bad) a couple
of weeks ago that started this whole process. I think that was caused by
running injector cleaner in the first place, because it also caused my fuel
pump to start leaking. (fixed it) My thought now is that the cleaner
dislodged some crap in the system and let all those non soluble solids move
around a bit, maybe even aggravating the pental problem you speak of. I have
at least a flow that stops the missing but causes more problems above idle
speed. What do you think? This whole Theory makes the most sense I have
heard so far.

I went through some of the things you mention already, rebuilt engine one
year old so compression is OK, valves have been adjusted several times with
little change. Tried the injector plug off and on and saw a drop in RPM on
each one, injectors are all working and flow the same at least at a normal
cranking over of the engine for 20 seconds.

I would still be suspect of the pressure sensor though - I had adjusted it a
bit to stop a hesitation I was getting when first accelerating - Fixed -
though if I fix the injectors I may have to re-set. Do you have one I could
barrow to see the difference when the time comes?

You have given me some food for thought that's for sure. You do have more
than a basic understanding and you think outside the box - Thanks!

Let me know how much for the injectors and where to get them, and what you
think of my "theory"

Chris Picknally - I have hope once again!



> From: "Leon Martinez B." <martinezl@icanet.com.mx>
> Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 20:57:50 -0700
> To: <bluesky@verdeonline.com>
> Subject: EFI PROBLEM
>
> Chris,
>
> I am at home now . I will give you info on my
> corrected EFI problems. All the problems I show you
> happened all at the same time among other serious ones.
>
> EFI :::
>
> 1. Serious vibration problems (I had many different
> types ). Does it vibrate in idle or only upon
> acceleration or during high speeds ?
>
> A. Mine vibrated
> in low speeds too, in addition to high speeds .
> In low speeds I found that one of my injectors was
> not firing and the second one fired sometimes, at times
> I only had two cylinders firing, all other times I had
> three cylinders running slow freeway speeds (max 60mph)
> with much vibration.
>
> To find problem I disconnected each injector during
> idle and found one that did not affect the vibration
> more (just like pulling dist cap wires) . The one that
> was not affecting the engine had a break inside the
> wire connection. The other wire I found by bending
> the wire until it began to fail badly.
>
> To fix these I had to go to the VW dealership with
> the connection and wires. To separate the wire or
> spade from the plastic plug, I had to push a needle
> or pin into the slot in the plug and pull or push
> the spade out. The dealership sold me two spades
> with one foot wire attached for a couple a bucks.
> The plasic connector was about three bucks(bare no
> wires). I replaced all wires and their connectors
> to the injectors. The rubber boot is no longer available
> but it is available through Porsche (914?), Mercedes
> 1975 (luxery with v8) or 1973 Volvo ( staight six cars
> or 244 sraight four) all with D-Jetronic. For exact model
> ask a mechanic that is an expert of each of these,
> then go to the dealership and order them. West coast metric
> may have these too.
>
> That is it for the injectors wiring.
>
>
> B. Vibration at high speeds , even during just gassing
> it in neutral (no tranny connection).
>
> I found this very annoying but it is the most major
> problem for all of us with EFI. The problem mostly shows
> up during highway speeds.
>
> I found part of the problem when I pulled each injector
> and pumped each injector manually. Does your car have the gas
> pump feature? You can hear clicks when key is on and the
> engine is on while you manually turn the trottle at the
> manifold. I got an injector at the opposite cylinder that
> was "clicking". Two cylinders always inject at the same time
> these are "1" and "4" at the same time and "2" and "3".
> Choose the pair that is clicking at that moment. Pull
> both injector pairs and put both in jars pump the throttle
> several times to see the injector patterns of both
> pump faster and faster each time to see if the cut off
> at higher speeds happens turn the engine a little until
> the other pair is activated , do the same.
>
> Did you see any get less spray ? Did you see any cut
> off when quickly making pulses? If you do not have the
> pump feature remove the distributor and turn it back and
> forth very quickly to see if spray cutoff happen.
>
> I found all my injectors cutoff when pumping very fast.
> I purchased Python rebuilt brand and found that each
> one flowed differently in a graduated test tube.
> A couple cut off at higher speeds, I returned them several
> times and gave up the quality was not good. I never
> installed them, most peoplle would not test but would
> install them and would not know that they were bad until
> they got worse. I bought rebuilt one from Bret
> instruments and three new ones from Bosch (experimenting)
> and I found that they flowed a lot and all exactly the same.
> The flow rate exeeded all injectors I have tried before.
> I installed them and wow what a difference and it was also
> smooth.
>
> The loss of flow is caused by solids that are not soluble
> in fuel injector cleaner (micro fine sand, dirt that got
> through the screen including a chunk of corrosion).
> The high speed cutoff is caused by the pentle scraping
> the side of the inside of the injector. The gouged pentle
> and "tube" create friction during higher speeds and
> slow down or get stuck completely. This is very common,
> more than everyone thinks.
>
> I understand you have two yellow injectors and two black
> injectors . As I understand, the black injectors are the
> original ones that came with the car they are 30 years old.
> The yellow ones are the ones you buy at the dealer. the
> tips of the new ones have a plastic cover to help
> with the spray pattern and protect the tip.
> I think you may have a problem with old injectors that
> are either dirty or gouged or both.
> The injectors if used heavily (lots of driving, I drive
> 140 miles per day) will last 5 years or 10 years with
> normal driving until they are rebuilt at BRET INSTRUMENTS
> or replaced with new ones from BOSCH.
>
> C. The other scenario of vibration that started to
> get noticed little by little during high speeds was
> caused by the injector points, located in the
> distributor. The grease in the injector points was
> 30 years old and was turning into glue. At slow speeds
> the points turn the injectors on and off at proper
> times and at high speeds the points start to float
> open at random times. This causes much vibration
> at different speeds and sometimes they steady out
> and then change. This happens at higher speeds
> and works in city driving. The reason for this
> is because the grease gets so thick with age that
> the points (efi points that is) open and close
> slowly and at higher movement they stay open randomly.
>
> To fix this, I removed the points, checked the
> movement and found that they were not closing
> crisply. I cleaned them by leaving them in solvent
> or kerosene. I moved them until I loosened them.
> Dried them and placed the proper drop of oil on the
> hinge and also greased the cam rubbing blocks
> with lithium or cam grease. I reinstalled them
> and the high speed missing stopped completely.
>
> D. Another cause of missing was a randomely
> faulty pressure sensor. The missing happened
> even to the point of bogging. This was caused by
> the original sensor that still held vacume
> perfectly . I adjusted it for more richness
> and corrected many missing instances. Though
> the missing was much less than that vibration I
> experienced, it was caused by the sensor.
> As soon as I tried a junkyard unit the car
> the problem was completely corrected. I
> purchased a new one and the engine has
> worked for over a year.
>
> E. After placing the engine back in after
> an egine disaster I did something bad.
> I did not install my flexplate in my
> automatic tranny properly and after
> a few months, my engine seemed to vibrate
> but it seemed to shake my car. This lasted
> until I broke my flexplate and replaced it .
> I put a wrong gland nut in it and broke it again.
> Finally did it right again.
>
>
> All my vibration problems were either overlapping
> or at the same time or a little after each fix.
> This was a nightmare that ended.
>
> The fixes should last another 20 years but a carb
> rebuild on cars are every six months to a year,
> depending on driving condition.
>
>
> If you have any questions, please ask, I know I
> have given you a lot and I may have not explained it
> clearly but I can clearify each item you may ask.
> All of this and more has happened to me. You must
> understand that these electrical items are 30+
> years old and have to fail. Some carbs this old
> have been discarded long ago, sometimes. If you
> cannot correct this try to find someone near
> by that can help you or do it. If you lived near
> by I would have swapped out my stuff with your's
> until we found the bad item or items. IF you
> spend on a new carb kit, you can put
> the money into many items in the EFI. If you
> change the EFI to carbs, I would like to buy
> the EFI system for another engine I am building in
> the future.
>
>
> LEON MARTINEZ
>
> 1969 SQUAREBACK EFI/AUTO
>
> SAN DIEGO AND TIJUANA
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------
List info at http://www.vwtype3.org/list or mailto:help@vwtype3.org