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Mike, this is not directed at you, but I've heard this a million, million times before... "In Europe, you're ON THE ROAD. In America, you're IN THE CAR." They've said that for 40 years, and as a driver, I'm a little tired of it. McLuhan is right. A 1965 Ferarri is a helluva car. I had the distinct pleasure of driving a 1971<?> Porsche 912 Targa with a flat 6 and 2 Weber 3-bbl carbs, what a car. How many are there? How many people in Europe had them? Most people in Europe had Type 1's, or Citroen 2CV's, or Morris Mini's, or pick your econo-box. I don't care how 'fun' they are, assuming they're stock, they're all grossly under-powered, have *no* suspension to speak of, and the cobblestones of any middle euro city would about rattle your fillings out in any of the standard fare of Europe in the 60's. I've driven in Europe (where it would admittedly be tough to squeeze a '65 Grand Prix into an alley), and all across the US in dozens of different cars. I'm all too familiar with my left foot being lead-heavy (or radiation-burned) after having been pressed up against a wheel well for 10 hours, as I scoot across the country in my little Beetle. I've also done the trip in a 65 Catalina. 334 horsepower didn't mean jack out on the road, except possibly in the Blue Ridge Mountains and at the 'Divide in NM; and even then, it wasn't that big of a deal, but at the end of the day, I didn't have to hobble to the hotel lobby. In the corners in that little Type I, on icy bends in the mountains of Virginia and northern Arizona, I didn't give a rat's honker about anything but the fact that my butt was hosed if I strayed off the road, and that straying was *really* easy. I'll never deny that I love VW's and air-cooled, and T3's best of all; but a bone stock T3 versus a 1965 Pontiac GTO? Forget it. Even the bone-stock suspension on a base model Pontiac is better in my opinion. Who's to say which is more dependable. I've seen 60's American cars that wouldn't run, and VW's with 800K on them. VW's get better mileage. They're lots cuter, and genuinely fun. But if you're going to romanticise the idea that a car design that was made 30 years *before* the 60's has better handling than a same-year yank, I can not agree. VW, Renault, Citroen, Fiat, SAAB, Volvo and the like were just trying to build affordable, dependable cars, performance was left to the 'big boys.' I'm sorry for the tirade, but all euro-drivers wail away on American cars, and I have to draw the line; a Ferrari Boxer or 308 will out-handle any American car; but there weren't enough Ferrari's on the road *then* to make a realistic comparison. A 1965 Fiat Panda (or whatever) versus a 1965 Chevy Nova, please. I'm so, so tired of this. There's more roll in a turn with a mid-60's 2CV than at a ball-bearing factory. I guess my whole point is, compare apples to apples. A 64 Ferrari GTO vs. a 64 Pontiac GTO? Now that's a comparison! *There* a eurocar easily out-handles the American. But it's a real race in the straightaway! Now that I'm blacklisted... James 'No, really I'm *not* a communist' MacNaughton ------------------------------------------------------------------- List info at http://www.vwtype3.org/list or mailto:help@vwtype3.org