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I guess I should chime in here. I've looked at this from a number of perspectives. When the logo lawyers were on a rampage, I read all the posts that I could on RAMVA (rec autos maker(s) volkswagen aircooled), and was outraged by the way they went after small clubs and people who were obviously not making any money off the VW name or logo. I can understand how they went after companies like Rocky Mountain Motorworks, who, as I understand it, were blatantly selling items with the VW logo. Incidentally, around the same time, when I was working for adidas, we were working on a grass roots marketing project where we built a web site that gave small fan sites (of Kobe Bryant) all kinds of logos and imagery that they could use on their "personal" web site. I think that VW learned their lesson, and I believe that they fired that firm. I work on branding/corporate identity for a living and can see VW's need for protecting their brand (logo, imagery). If they don't, they'll lose control of what VW is all about. I think it is absolutely wrong for a big company to sell anything with the VW logo without paying licensing. I do however think it is ok for a company to sell stuff with an image of an older Volkswagen (Beetle, Type 3, etc). The lawyers may disagree here, but since they don't sell these cars or many of the parts any longer, it seems silly to protect this. I have to admit, though, that part of me loves bootleg stuff sold at swap meets, especially t-shirts. I was recently at a swap, and one guy was selling not just one vinyl logo, but a sheet of CAD cut logos. Most of which were home brewed; stretched, and not drawn correctly. A sheet of 20 or so for $10. I often wonder if anyone from VW corporate has ever been to a swap meet. Branding is a funny thing. You have to control all aspects of logo usage, from advertising down to logos used on product. It is about control. Otherwise the logo is used in ways that look unprofessional. Logos used outside of the parameters that are directed within the corporate identity manual, end up making the company look unpolished. The company in VW Trends or HotVWs that has a black circle over the VW logo on the bus/truck in their ad is a good example of a waste of time. The fact that VW won't let them show a logo on a car is goofy. I don't see any conflict of interest with a logo (which was controlled by VW originally) on a vehicle. If the logo was cropped, so that the car wasn't showing, that would be different. Our club (SOVW) has recently gone through the process of becoming an official club site registered with VW. I didn't take part in the process, but it was smooth. After our application was submitted, they replied with just one small request. We had a spinning logo within our club logo and a logo next to "Members Wanted". They requested that the spinning VW logo be removed and that we only use one VW logo per page. That's it, that is all they requested. I am however disappointed that VW doesn't list their "approved" clubs/organizations on their web site (at least I haven't found any links). I think that would give a boost to the amount of clubs that register with VW. Who would turn down traffic from VW.com?? Phillip "Mr. Branding" Bradfield -- Phillip Bradfield Member: southern oregon vw club: http://www.sovw.com rose city volksters: http://www.rosecityvolksters.com ddb: http://www.theddb.com (coming soon to a type 3 near you) 1969 Variant - Savanna beige, No engine, speedster soon to have a bus dash 1968 Variant - Granada red, No engine, with 67 euro fenders, soon to be full automatic! 1963 1500 - Ruby red, 1600 with dual Solex carburetors 19?? Sandrail - Primer, 1835 with dual 40 Dellortos ------------------------------------------------------------------- List info at http://www.vwtype3.org/list | mailto:gregm@vwtype3.org